Episode Fifteen – Welfare Rights (& Nutcrackers & the Feminazis Who Love Them) w Wilson Sherwin


The Antifada is more than a podcast.
It’s a specter haunting the globe. It is the synthesis of the two most frightening
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Bassh the fast and the global uprising be prepared to enter: The Antifada Mindset. I’m Jamie Peck I’m Shawn KB, and we are
broadcasting not live from left at best headquarters about a half hour walk away
from the gentrification ravage Gowanus Canal in the coastal elite bubble of
America downtown Brooklyn USA that’s right and today we are missing Andy our
producer who is still at Comi camp he’s done with commie camp now he’s in San
Francisco oh he’s doing research on Posada at the library right now probably
as we speak good man well he’s still gonna edit it
for us but I am proud to welcome into the studio our guest Wilson Sherwin
hey y’all happy to be here thank you for coming and Wilson is an activist an
educator and a PhD student in sociology at the CUNY grad center is it fair to
say an all-around badass as well depends who you ask if you asked me I’d say
considering the amount of trouble that you and I have gone into along with
other people and our various organizing you know activities I’d say you could be
a bit you could be a little dangerous I think I think you qualify it’s true we
have we have had some fun and got into some raucous times hell yeah and who is
your thesis advisor there at the CUNY grad Center I’m working with the og
herself frances fox piven it’s funny because like all the liberals
they all freak out about Ruth Bader Ginsburg but like frances fox piven is
way more gangster though I will see you’re notorious RBG and raise you our
notorious FFP absolutely the bane of the right-wing or what several years back
right Glenn Beck had a real real hate on for for your advisor right they were
burning effigies of her at Tea Party rallies and she had to have like
security detail damn yeah she really earned her stripes why do you think it
was that made her this right-wing boogeyman Glenn Beck traced it back to
the article that she wrote in the nation in 1966 and thought that because of that
article she was single-handedly responsible for
the 2008 financial crisis in a leap of logic have all the board’s
behind he needs 17 blackboards just to get from that to the end he also
actually the the invisible committee right he also opted was at the coming
insurrection by those very obscure like takuna stan are kissed in france and
made them you know way more popular than they would have been otherwise books
sold he does went back was freaking out about communists before it was cool
before we were even running shit in the streets so wilson is one of the rare
people we know who actually grew up in new york city it’s true I did a living
breathing walking talking city kid still here a townie as I like to be called except that in the high season it’s like
four million people coming into your town instead of like four thousand Bar
Harbor something like that right and I understand you had a cool living
situation growing up well I grew up in a loft in Tribeca you know in the mid 80s
and when my parents moved in there my mom was pregnant with me there was a gay
porn studio downstairs and they very kindly as they were moving out gave my
mom there washer and dryer because they thought that a woman with a new child
would definitely need a washer and dryer so we had the gay porn studios washer
that’s such I love that solidarity that’s social solidarity it was it was
good it was a different New York back then you know you could have children
live above a gay porn studio in downtown Manhattan was it all financed Bros and
NYU students and all that shit yeah there was a lot of beauty and the
wreckage of post-industrial Tribeca oh yeah because of this little thing called
white flight the five generations of my family including my mother and father
who were all from New York City managed to banish me in my childhood
into the fucking suburbs and fortunately for me my first the first love of my
life was not Jamie I was actually a girl named Rachel she lived very close to
here just steps from here in Brooklyn Heights and so I remember the mid-90s in
New York City and boy was it a different world even Brooklyn Heights you couldn’t
go down to Camden Plaza over there and I also remember too that uh you know she’s
very you know she’s doing very well in her life right now but a lot of the
people I met way back then those City kids are like super fucked in the head
I’m not a rehab like totally crazy I just want to thank you or like applaud
you for being so well-adjusted brutal I mean you know like my childhood was
bookended by the AIDS crisis and I spent like the last few months of my life in
utero at the AIDS ward in st. Vincent’s where my mom’s best friend was dying
well Jesus and like everyone she knew died in a matter of years and then you
know my senior year of high school 9/11 so it was like kind of wild 17 years
right in the towers were not far from your your home yeah we were like right
at the cutoff of where folks had to be evacuated so New York has definitely
changed a lot it certainly makes me nostalgic for the ways that people were
able to make do in that time and you know the art they were able to create
and I am not 15 anymore but I missed the ability that I had back then as a 15
year old to just be able to walk into a bodega in Manhattan and buy cigarettes
in a 40 and drinking in the streets which was really real back then it was
great yeah my first experience of coming to New York City was visiting my friends
from camp because I went to an arts camp in New Jersey as one does very a very
jewy place and I had some friends who lived in the city who were city kids and
yeah I would I would take the bus from Hartford when I was in high school and
visit my friends and there was this one kid who was like three years younger
than the rest of us he was like 13 he was a news story named Eli Eli wing
shout-out to Eli wing he had the bottom floor of his parents
brownstone in Park Slope and that was the first place I ever smoked weed and
got no actually the second time I ever smoked weed the first time I got stoned
off weed so like we climbed up to the roof I don’t know where his parents were
I never saw them that’s the parents for you I was like 15
or 16 at the time and then it was kind of hard for me to climb back down there
was a ladder but I did I remember we went we went out to this place called
Pino said really good pizza and we went there twice at night we had two pizza
dinners and we had two Prospect Park we smoke some more weed then we came back
and my friends all jammed because they had a little band and they would jam in
Eli’s basement and they were jamming on some pixie songs and I just remember
sitting in front of the big speaker that the music was coming out of and it was
like tactile like I could feel it I was like god fucking damn it I love the
Pixies Wilson did you have any experiences similar to that I hear
you’re going to educate us on the true origins of the Nutcracker because that’s
something that’s enjoyed drinking to eat and I think we talked about it a couple
episodes ago but maybe we don’t like we don’t even know why it’s called a
nutcracker so maybe you could enlighten us before she does just you make it
sound so benign it was a hard correction like she texted me she’s like I’ll
fucking explain to you what a fucking Nutcracker is you dumb fucking Schmucks
the fucking Bridge and Tunnel scum I may have just not had coffee know well so I
lived in Harlem for a number of years during an after college and right next
to the Polo Grounds and the folks in the Polo Grounds are very proud of their
Nutcracker being Nutcracker originators and that it really came about as like a
drink for the record playground events and the I guess the now the sort of
story is that following the 2008 crisis that they started trickling down like
throughout the city that more and more people were kind of looking for like
alternative economy things and that it used to be the only plate the only time
you could get a nut cracker in Brooklyn was at the West Indian Day Parade but
now they’re all over the place so that was that was my only little addendum it
wasn’t well that’s that’s interesting sharing economy we want the bathtub
economy that’s definitely where that booze comes from what about what were
those things be that they were delivering several years back Oh frosty
you know frosty was a similar thing blew up on the Internet it was just like
pretty similar I guess it’s like an alcoholic slushy that would get you
fucked up and it it you had to order them through Instagram but it ended very
quickly once people started blogging about it like obviously because it’s
wildly elite and the blogs have just ruined everything good about New York
thank these people have no fucking decency so just to make things clear for
the listeners you would go to Instagram and you’d order it right and a guy would
call message they would deliver you melting alcoholic slushie and you would
post it on Instagram probably you’d feel really cool and get also really fucked
up and get really drunk so speaking just add you know green alcohol to a slushy
either you get from 7-eleven probably have approximately the same outcome I
think the rumor was that it was actually lean like it had codeine in it but I
don’t think that was ever actually that would be way too expensive and hard
twelve probably probably not do you know why they’re called nut crackers maybe
maybe because of the shadowing on the shape I don’t know I’ve got two theories
about that they fuck you up so much I mean I’ve definitely seen them take down
like 6 foot 5 250 pound dudes like just topple like a tree like maybe one or two
maybe they’re called that because you fall down and break your nuts or maybe
also maybe it’s named after the classic ballet with the dance of the Sugar Plum
fairies because they do contain lots and lots of sugar
West Indian guys I think are really pretty hyped on on that particular piece
of ballet so I mean I think that’s totally plausible speaking of getting
really fucked up Jamie is breaking the internet right now an incredible story
that she wrote for Rolling Stone about a incredible experience that she had just
the other day oh my god it was so dark would you want to tell folks a little
bit what happened without going through the whole thing which they can read
about in a wonderful fashion on Rolling Stone calm I guess sure so um I attended
this festival that was like combined music indie music thing and a TED talk
featuring all the heroes of the radical Center not limited to by including uh
Grover Norquist Steven Pinker Hillary Clinton and that fucking sex robot Tom
Perez sex gulag he goes in the sex guru Lak he is pretty out it’s like if
somebody were to design like a male sex robot mm designed to appeal to like the
hashtag the women of the hashtag is the nasty women like I don’t think it could
get more perfect than Tom Perez 3000 so yeah I went with vinegar and Matt
Chrisman of chat with trap shout out to a show you may not have
heard of I we encourage everybody to check it out it’s called chapo Trap
House pretty funny stuff yeah if you like the anti Fattah you’ll probably
enjoy them it’s good of us to give them the shout out they really need it yeah
you’re welcome guys and it was super fun I guess
I’ve done a lot of this kind of thing in my life in my career when I used to be a
music and nightlife reporter Jamie is saying that she’s destroyed her brain
with LSD but yes I mean partially yes but um you’re not only LSD like other
drugs too you got to mix it up sometimes but um yeah I kind of stopped doing it
for a while not because I didn’t like to but because I got the sense that like
people didn’t really respect me because of it and like my writing wasn’t really
being received in the way I wanted it to and like people I mean I the problem is
I made it look too easy yeah you’re just so good at it I mean
you got what Jesus and Mary Chain doing math backstage Wayne Coyne of The
Flaming Lips yes him what Molly yeah we uh I’ve done Molly with Wayne Coyne
multiple times actually and we played with a bunch of toys that he bought the
toy store that day in Austin and it was it was pretty fun pretty weird I had fun
meeting him and his 21 year old girlfriend it was uh was a good time so
this was not your first rodeo no but I stopped doing it for a very long time
because I sensed it was kind of ruining my career a little bit and that was all
anyone wanted to pay me to do at this point of time it’s like I would like to
write a serious read about the Democratic Party and they’re like oh
haha no just here have more drugs right about that but you haven’t done a PCP
with Lil Wayne yet we’re gonna throw yeah well life is long but I kind of
missed the gonzo journalism and since I I mean I stopped doing it before I
pivoted to mainly writing about politics and then I’ve been writing lately about
politics since probably 2016 I would say but I’ve always missed it and wanted to
reincorporate it somehow into my current work and it was kind of a dream come
true to do this for Rolling Stone because I grew up reading hundreds
Thompson and wanting to sort of uh do do my own like socialist feminist take on
this uh traditionally very masculine form of writing so it was a super super
fun super special I convinced Matt and will that I was a really good drug mom
and nothing bad could happen when they were with me and that turned out to be
true so it was uh I wouldn’t say it was fun exactly but uh it was it was fun it
was kind of fun the event itself was horrible you can read all about it in
really stone but it was funny um on the way up in the elevator when I told
Wilson that I saw Hillary Clinton on LSD the look in her eyes I thought you might
shoot well either either scenarios but the one you thought was
did think this meant that Hillary was on LSD for a second and like for a second I
was like oh well that might do her some good then I remembered like you know
drugs they’re like technology they’re like brain technology like they’re only
as good or bad as the hands that they’re in and if Hillary did LSD like you know
took a little walk in the woods oh I’m I imagine it would be a lot like
the time that Tony Soprano did peyote after murdering Chris spoiler alert yourself you should have washed and at
the end he’s just like a less conflicted murderer
yeah goes on his way and that’s so we need Hillary to be that self-actualized
like I don’t think so I feel like I’m bad tripping just thinking about being
on acid around it was dark for a minute there was this guy who was yelling Ron
again she’s been a progressive her whole life I thought it was this irony bro
who’d come up to will and Matt earlier and said oh I love your show I’m here
ironically can we take a picture together and I and Matt’s like oh no
that’s a different guy and I didn’t believe him
and then the first guy came back and I realized they looked nothing like each
other and that that guy yelling was for real and I just started laughing and
crying hysterically at the same time well Jamie went to war she fought some
battles you’re welcome for my service outer demons along with some inner
demons mostly mostly outer demon demon um but she fought them and the better
angels of your nature brought her back you know from my side of the story as
Jamie’s partner and also somebody who knew about this escapade in advance and
it was trying to get in touch with her throughout the day to no avail and was
vaguely concerned because I know that Jamie you never know I mean we’re had a
bad trip because there were a lot of cops there Jamie is like a very
experienced psycho not like I just I knew she could handle this horrific
experience but I thought maybe if anything could break her it would be
like sitting there with like the tech and corporate elite just getting
buzzwords like thrown at her face while just tripping Faison I was I was pretty
I was a little worried for her but we finally got in touch and she said you
know it took a while for it to kick in but it did kick in and everything went
fine it took all the skills it might disposal she she did a great job
and then there’s an addendum to this story because you know this Rolling
Stone story that came out and then the chapel episode that just dropped
yesterday about this you know makes all this media seem like a finished product
you know this is very polished you know narrative with like some
incited and I think Jamie’s story had some great insights and really really
funny moments in it I mean it was great – like I said blowing up the internet
right now but um the actual process of producing that is absolutely fucking
grueling so like I went it was raining like shit she finally went back to will
manicures house I took a car over there so I was at a buddy’s house in Flatbush
the three of them were like they were pretty I think coming down at this point
in time but they were definitely watching Total Recall and like pounding
fucking beers like on the couch just like I’m sure much weed was smoked at
that before that and during and after but like you know they they really you
know went through this this intense battle eventually we went we went home
that night and Jamie actually managed to sleep then the next day which was
yesterday she banged out for like ten hours straight clack clack clack clack
clack this is not easy to do folks like she was like a fucking writing machine
like that ass like 10 fucking hours straight and I took the role because I
am out of work right now I by the way sorry I do not normally take ten hours
to write an article but I was extremely fried the day after doing acid so oh
yeah surprise surprise well I mean your work is reflected how good it is
but this kind of is a little segue to what we’re gonna be talking about today
because I’m out of work right now because the company I was working for
were doing heavy construction slowed down so I’m at home being the domestic
dad in the household and I’m proud to say and I’m happy I’ve got no
hangouts about this whatsoever I made her tea breakfast lunch dinner
every time she needed water came and got it for her
I helped her as much as I could I basically I don’t know it was like
reproducing her social labor within the house as she produced the site of
production was our household and I was an integral part to that process of
production that’s my woke Bay the invisible labor so behind every great
woman gonzo journalist there is an equally great man cooking her breakfast
lunch and dinner that’s right so Jamie I think the most horrifying
thing that you had to face was the Queen godmother of hashtag resistance people
everywhere Hillary Clinton in the flesh on acid again applause for being able to
actually do that without jumping off a bridge or something like that
what if we’re going to talk about domestic labor we’re gonna talk about
issues with the gender division of labor we’re gonna talk about historical and
present fights for justice do you want to maybe explain for folks Wilson and
Jamie the difference between say Hillary Clinton’s brand of feminism and your
brands of feminism yeah well you were just in the belly of the beast do you
want to I mean I should start up a saying that I’m not one of those
psychotic people who like obsessively hates everything about Hillary there’s
actually I’m Lahti me no offense to anyone in the room who might be like
that so for the first time there’s actually more goyim in the studio than
there are Jews so Wilson IR hate so pure that we outnumber you on that oh my god
we forgot to ask the question that’s the fuck are you and also are you implying
the Jews hate is less pure than everyone else’s I mean Glenn Beck might think so
I’ve never read the protocols of the Elders of Zion I don’t know what these I
mean I’m open you know I mean if you can’t self hate it’s probably the most
that’s true yeah man I mean speaking of which my hate is incredibly pure today
having been purified in the fires of the neoliberal
machine that I faced yesterday so let’s let’s ask the fucking question and that
we’re gonna get on all right here we go Wilson
how pure is your hate today oh man my hate is pretty fucking pure it’s a
boiling raging feminazi hatred that is just pure as can be I love the question
because every answer like that’s either claw-like quantitative like people give
a number or they make awesome metaphors like scintillate like boiling-hot like
oh so evocative hate is it’s just a wonderful emotion yeah I think it’s
really uh it’s really underrated maybe even misunderstood by you know the
people making the DSM or whatever and we’re Pro FEM Nazis if there’s any Nazis
to be like it’s feminine that you know it’s funny they’ve really stopped
calling us that since like Nazis have come back into fashion in a big way too
far right they’re erasing femme Nazi losses oh my god so as I was saying I
don’t hate everything about Hillary uh I think she’s a strong woman I admire that
about her she’s gonna be very smart pretty tough I like her anywhere
super-predators she’s tough I like her which like cackled I could only hope to
someday have a cackle half as harsh grating and castrating as hers and that
is a compliment coming from me because I am a feminazi as well and she’s dealt
with a lot of bullshit a lot of sexist bullshit throughout her life which are
you certainly have empathy for but she’s she’s not on our side and she never will
be yeah yeah what separates her from from the good femme Nazis in the world
well I guess I have a way that I like to kind of distinguish it that is pretty
basic which I think that the kind of bourgeois feminists you know that
Hillary Clinton is a kind of model example of want their slice of the pie
right they think that if they get a slice of the pie the world will be
somehow more equal or maybe they want to have like a little bit more of a say in
like what ingredients go into the pie and I think the radical feminists or the
you know Marxist feminists or the socialist feminists depending on on
who’s talking want to look at the whole process and
say actually we want the whole bakery and we think that it’s immoral the labor
that’s going into it and the way that different people get different
remuneration for their work and we think it’s like not not environmentally viable
the way these ingredients are being sourced and that you know this bourgeois
feminist kind of obsession with oh if I just also have a slice of this pie I’ll
be fine is is just totally crazy Valerie Solanas has this friend of the show
friend of the show has that I think the most perfect way of describing the
difference between radical feminists and bushwa feminists and she says we don’t
want to co-manage the shit pile oh yeah and that’s it that’s it to me right like
we need to radically reconfigure it all not just go manage this shithole and
even as somebody who if Valerie Solanas has had her way would have been
summarily executed after my sperm was taken from me I agree with that
sentiment Society for cutting up men’s sounds harsh but you know I can roll
with it that’s what we like to hear solidarity forever
that is the anti Fattah mindset the administrative note this is being
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conversation imported discord is a little a pupa phone chat room to chat
room chat room with different channel a sort of slang for communists it’s all
communists all the time there’s a couple of socialists but we kind of you know
put them to the side marginalized socialist voices sometimes you could
talk to us about our show and tell us how much we suck or give us suggestions
on other shows sometimes the guest from our shows will pop in and be really
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you get acid kitchen which is going to one of many videos we’re gonna be
producing with all of the patreon money that we’ve been just Sakon away there
you know the thousands and millions of patreon dollars that we have in our
production budget now so there’s a lot of perks to becoming an anti fun a
super-soldier and one of them is that you will not get the wall boom so yeah I like the way that Adolf Reed
talks about neoliberal identity politics as well now I don’t agree with him on
everything but uh he’s got a very good analysis of this where like I mean I’m
wildly paraphrasing but according to neoliberal identity politics it’s enough
to maintain the hierarchy of our society if the ruling class has a proportional
representation of women people color LGBT people etc etc whereas in a
socialist feminism is about saying like no that’s not enough for us we want
radical equality for all of humanity and not just the lucky few women and like
also we’re not gonna pretend that I mean Marxism is at the fulcrum of our
analysis and I’m not going to pretend like I have a ton of common interests
with a woman who is like the CEO of the company that I work for who’s exploiting
me because yeah we might have some some overlapping interests as women living in
patriarchy but um on a very basic level we are in conflict with one another and
neoliberal identity politics tries to conceal that any way it can now some
might push back on that and say well oh you don’t appreciate the gains that
women have made in the workplace or there being more you know Congress women
and senators who are women and almost uh you know President of the United States
who was a woman where would you almost almost president she did win the popular
vote and if it wasn’t for Russian call me she would have won the goddamn
fucking election that was a take away from the Aussie first thing as I
understand it what would you how would you to respond to somebody who said like
oh well so you just want women to wait for like some utopian fucking socialist
revolution what are we supposed to do now with your Marxist feminism
besides say go fuck yourself I think that uh in a lot of ways you
know we’ve had 50 years of feminism of like go to work and you’ll be liberated
and we’ve seen that that really doesn’t pan out right like women are in huge
debt they don’t have maternity leave they are just proportionately poor
they’re still you know getting their asses kicked by their spouses on the
regular I mean just yesterday was like a horrific day of it seemed like every
news story was about women getting shot like in Toronto and California right I
mean like the level of misogyny hasn’t necessarily really been radically
transformed by women entering the workforce and like being bosses and
being CEOs and I don’t know I don’t think I mean I think some gains have
definitely been made right like I like it that I have the option to do what I
do for work instead of having to be like barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen
which is not something that I’m terribly interested in and Jamie also appreciates
that we use abortion as birth control in our house indeed indeed
no I shout out to IUDs it’s uh can’t me baby free for quite some time now but um
amen and I’ll give a hallelujah to that yeah like I like it that it’s no longer
acceptable for your boss to like smack you on the ass and call you sweetie or
whatever I like there certainly have been gains made I mean I like having but
like since when is that not acceptable it’s like not acceptable since me too
since like six months ago I mean part of like what we’re seeing is that that’s
still like totally widespread oh yeah for sure but like I think it’s
definitely changed a lot from how it used to be and we still have a pretty
long way to go I think we’ve made all the progress we’re gonna make in terms
of the law right like I think it’s a mistake to say that we just need better
and better law and more like harsh penalties for this
that’s a total bad that’s bad road that socialist feminist don’t want to go down
but like at least we have laws against sexual harassment now like that’s not
that’s a good thing it’s not it’s never gonna do it’s never going to take us all
the way and I think that’s a critique that I have made in the past of the me
to movement which I’m I’m like I have critical support for it right like um I
think it’s really good that people are talking about this stuff I think it’s
really good that people are feeling less alone telling their stories and raising
awareness which you know a lot of men that I talked to we’re like totally
bowled over by it just like the volume and severity of these stories and like
it’s even worse than I thought it was right and like I already thought it was
pretty fucking bad just judging from my own experience but um you know they say
vulgar Marxism explains a 90% of the world and the other 10% is not nothing
but I think most of the discourse we’ve seen around me to kind of stays within
that 10% and doesn’t really go outside of it to see like these are crimes of
power power imbalance and the way you fix it you get I mean you’re gonna get a
lot more bang for your buck at least if you fix the power imbalances rather than
trying to change people’s hearts and minds and raise consciousness so like
things like socialized medicine socialized health care they reduce
women’s dependence on men and and on their jobs and increase their ability to
I mean unions obviously a huge thing and increase our ability to stand up to
bosses and husbands and whoever else is abusing us from a position of authority
not just to jump in and I think that the ability of a woman to gain the dubious
distinction of independence under capitalist society by you know getting a
job and being able to actualize themselves in you know the ways that
capitalism allows people to do that is all as a well and good thing but
capitalism is a contradictory system me that women are allowed on the workplace
now which is good however it means that more and more households are surviving
on two incomes so now you have a lot more wage labor being spread across
society and people working a lot of hours when when ultimately our politics
here at the anti Fattah are anti wage labor politics so it’s good for people
to be allowed into that wage labor market but we need to have a critique of
that you’re working on a research project Wilson now right that kind of
analyzed this historically yeah I’ve been doing a lot of archival work and
writing about the national welfare rights organization which was this
really rad social movement in the 60s and 70s of mostly welfare moms getting
in the streets in the courtrooms and taking over welfare offices and
demanding basically the paychecks that they felt that they were due and they’ve
been remembered in these really kind of liberal ways so a lot of folks who have
written about them talked about them as kind of like maternal astray were just
moms who wanted to be able to stay home with their kids and it was important
that they were black moms who were sort of reclaiming the right to stay home
with their kids when white women had had this privilege and in going back and
looking at you know the movement I found all this incredible stuff where they
really kind of take this you know they’re very different than so honest in
a lot of ways but where they take this we don’t want to co-manage the shitpile
position and they’re they really distinguish themselves from like two
movements that they were sandwiched between civil rights movement and the
mainstream feminist movement by their refusal and their rejection of work that
is definitely anti fada mindset politics right there so this was which is it fair
to say this was a grassroots direct – action mass based struggle movement yeah
I mean the nwro formed in 1966 and kind of because it saw that this guy
George Wiley wanted to do something about poverty and he saw that there were
so many independent grassroots welfare rights organizations that had popped up
all over the country there were like more than 200 of them who were really
militant and really mobilizing around the issue of poverty and so it kind of
came out of that although the organization itself maybe wasn’t exactly
grassroots but yeah that’s really interesting
and like forgive me if this is a boring wonky question
listeners but I’ve been thinking a lot about the structure of socialist
organizations lately I’ve been thinking a lot about the structure of DSA versus
one like ISO like how did they balance sort of the centralist idea with having
all the different chapters be autonomous yeah they were pretty autonomous and
then had national conventions every once in a while but there certainly was no
like top-down directive you know on this question so frances fox piven my adviser
was really involved in the organization she was like a theorist and an activist
involved with it and she wrote about it later and like the big insight that she
got out of it was the sort of broader one about social movements about the
kind of tendency towards oligarchy or towards a kind of static
institutionalization that she felt she and her partner Richard Cloward felt is
really unfortunate because all of these resources and all these efforts get put
into maintaining the organization rather than actually drawing from what the the
real source of power of poor people is like that the source of power of poor
people isn’t organizational it’s actually disruptive and so in all this
focus on like creating the organization and maintaining the organization it like
stifled the militancy I think that there’s a lot of parallels with that
when you look at the labor movement for example and obviously these are
struggles that are directly or indirectly against the wage system as
it exists right so it makes sense that there’s this kind of this is kind of
push and pull this dialectic between grassroots militancy but also the real
institution on organizational capacity necessary to maintain something another
question I have is you know what’s the context you know that you mentioned
these other civil rights movements what’s the historical context in the in
the 60s and 70s that makes this a point of struggle on a moment of struggle yeah
I mean you know I think people are familiar with the ways that the 60s was
a really turbulent time and the welfare rights movement is really interesting to
me in the way that they kind of reject the solutions that other movements put
forward so you know the the freedom budget that a philip Randolph and a lot
of other major civil rights luminaries who were you know socialists of varying
stripes felt was the solution to the crisis of life for black Americans and
the center of that to them was jobs jobs jobs jobs full employment and jobs are
going to be the solution to all of the problems that black America is facing
and you know similarly like Betty Friedan’s book The Feminine Mystique
came out in 63 really saying like the solution to women’s problems is leaving
the confines of the house and going into the workforce and these women I think in
a lot of ways like really presage a movement that gets a lot more attention
for being radical which is like the wages for housework movement or
something like the Combahee River collective and looking at the ways that
women are really stuck in the shittiest jobs and still have a ton of
responsibility at home and that for these women who have been working all
their lives like more work was not the solution to them it was constantly like
their refrain was more money now and our our problems aren’t gonna be solved by
jobs by income that was really their emphasis was income is the solution not
work yeah that reminds me of some stuff I read in my stocked them a reading
group actually from some early Bolshevik thinkers where they
were trying to figure out how to bring women into this proletarian struggle and
there was some who thought that women needed to become workers first basically
they needed to become proletarian eyes so they could fight alongside the men in
the factories and wherever the shop floor was and there were others who
thought that that was not a necessary intermediary step you know they could
turn that’s the domestic sphere into a sight
of struggle as well and that’s um that’s what I think of when you talk about the
wages for housework movement it started in the 70s yeah totally and and so like
I don’t know I want to I want to like get there but I also just want to point
out like a couple of other things that were going on in that in that time that
I think we’re maybe influential at least sort of in the air if not directly yeah
it definitely like priests ages the wages for housework stuff and I think
that we see these kinds of like threads in the movement of a lot of fundamental
socialist and socialist feminist thinking that have really been kind of
covered over by all the scholars who’ve looked at it
Christian Ross has this amazing quote when she talks about the way
sociologists have talked about 68 in France where she says that sociologists
play the function to history that police play to the present so basically and
saying nothing to see here folks keep it moving and I really feel like that’s
what people have done with the welfare rights movement there’s been this kind
of like cover-up of how really fundamentally radical their demands for
income decoupled from labor were what are the social conditions at heart here
you know that these women are responding to in this movement and why did they
respond to it in the particular way that they did I think that one of the things
that’s cool about them is they’re really responding to a lot of political
economic transformations so the kind of specter of technological unemployment
factored really big and they’re thinking so the Great Society is happening at
this moment that must have been a bit of a top-down sort of state impetus to
these people to start thinking differently right about their will
to work into the state and their demands yeah it was a moment where there was
actually a kind of generous expansion of the welfare state and a belief that this
had to happen really you know in order to quell the riots and and you know
there was also a lot of mobilization like on the part of the Panthers around
the idea of wage lessness as a viable political position right like the
radical position of the lump and proletariat it’s not just the people in
the factories who are important to society or who are contributing to
society yeah I was really interested in that part because um I think when we
think of organizing traditionally you think of organizing in the workplace
where you have your labor to withhold as you see fit to extract concessions from
capital but when people are not employed like how do you organize people who are
not in the traditional workplace what are the pressure points they’re the sort
of fulcrums of power well they had a lot of power because
there were actual offices that you had to go to in order to you know deal with
all the bureaucratic stuff of welfare and I think that was certainly kind of a
choke point that gave them a space to meet in a space to really get the goods
and to see how direct action was getting the goods you know walk home with a
check for a hundred dollars in 1968 it was a lot of fucking money but they also
had really I think kind of sophisticated understandings of the ways that their
reproductive labor was both creating the labor force for the future and you know
keep in mind that this was during Vietnam and you know daniel patrick
moynihan the horrible senator who decided that the cure for all of the
problems with the quote-unquote negro family was to send black men to vietnam
to teach them how to be real men and and these women you know we’re aware of the
fact that their labor in producing these children was being used either to send
them to the factories or to send them to vietnam and and i think you know it’s a
it’s a particularly cool moment because a lot of mainstream feminine
or even socialist feminists we’re sort of grappling with how do we intervene in
the question of Vietnam like it’s not really about us it’s not a woman’s
question we have to think about like women’s issues and and these women for
them it was so clear how this is obviously a woman’s issue you know how
reproductive labor is the kind of central point in all of these social
issues yeah can you say more about the reproductive labor because I feel like
this is something a lot of people miss when you hear people talk about welfare
now like it’s just money for nothing it’s dependency it’s a cycle of
dependency and it’s hardworking tax dollars going to these layabouts yeah
like do you want to dissect that idea a little bit yeah I mean I think I want to
be a little careful here because a lot of people in their interpretation of the
welfare rights movement have understood it as like these women wanted to be
housewives in the same way that white middle-class women were allowed to be
housewives throughout history and and I don’t think that’s exactly what they
were asking for partially they’re bringing attention to the ways that
their care labor is labor and deserves remuneration right like raising kids and
putting food on the table and they especially pointed out how much
incredibly hard work this is on a really tight budget right that this is like one
of the hardest tasks in the world is how to feed and figure out a family but
beyond that and this is the thing that I think a lot of folks have missed that is
really powerful is that what they saw as the work that they needed to be doing
and that that these welfare checks allowed them to do was political work
and was organizing and the change that they felt they could make in their
communities and that they saw themselves being able to make was really the thing
and you know you like go back and reading these newspapers these
testimonies from these women who were like yeah I was kind of lost in my life
and I joined this organization and I never really spoke very much and now I’m
like the leader of the state chapter and no one can get me to shut up and I feel
like totally found my calling and you know I think that this is like
dichotomy of are they going to be like out in the public at a job or are they
going to be stuck at home with the kids is a really false one
right that that they actually were in the public doing a lot of amazing
community work that was possible because of these checks hell yeah oh yeah
alright so you said that these uh welfare offices where this there’s no
this point where these activists these militants could go and be disruptive
what did it mean in this context to be disruptive what was their power to
disrupt well what they really disrupted was the funding so frances fox piven and
richard Cloward did this study where they found that only half of the people
who are eligible for welfare benefits were actually receiving them because of
a lot of kind of bureaucratic mess and a lot of people were getting turned away
who shouldn’t have gotten turned away and the disruption that they caused was
really to flood the offices demanding all of these benefits that they were
owed and the amount of funding that then was being spent both the number of
people who are receiving checks and the amount of checks just skyrocketed in a
number of years I think in one year they managed to get over fifty million
dollars from the city of New York alone you know in the sixties a huge amount of
money so this really caused a kind of crisis situation right and this was
really the epitome of pivot and Clower its crisis theory right in order to
bring about a federalized system of welfare benefits because all of these
meager racist state based programs needed to be overhauled and that the way
to do this was to force basically the federal government to step in because
the states couldn’t afford these mounting costs anymore and they hope
that they would implement a universal basic income there you go and how did
that work like I know they swung away from this strategy at one point because
other people argued that it was easier to create a crisis then bring about a
solution to the crisis and I guess they just didn’t trust the federal government
to solve it in any kind of positive way like how did how did it work out for
them well it didn’t work out great partially because of you know I think at
least you know this is Francis’s explanation the emphasis on organization
so they spent a lot of time trying to really build
this organization you know you have the kind of decline of the mass mobilization
in the street one of the ways that they were able to sort of threaten the
government and get what they wanted was because there were so many riots going
on at the time and and they quite literally say like if you don’t want our
sons in the streets burning shit down give us more checks and and with the
kind of subsiding of mass mobilization and militancy that was going on across
the country in different movements I think part of their threat was less you
know less weighty and Nixon proposes this guaranteed annual income that was
in you know 1971 that was very very very small it was smaller than the annual
welfare benefits in most states except for like the two cheapest southern
states and the nwro fought it very vehemently and you know in in this
narrative as its told one of the big things that’s always left out is that
they fought it really vehement ly because it had work requirements
attached to it interesting and so they were pissed off that the amount was so
low and they refused to work for that money right so just to play devil’s
advocate for a minute there are plenty of people out there who say you have to
work you know if people aren’t working society will cease to function and
everyone will starve to death and like the only way to make people work is to
basically force them on pain of starving to death
so like how’s that even gonna work if nobody has to go to work like when we
all just be like sitting around just like masturbating and playing video
games all day like what’s gonna happen doing drugs like like what that all
sounds great that’s my plan masturbate in the morning read theory in the masturbator theorize ER or drug user
it’s gonna be so much so yeah now we’re getting to sort of the political horizon
that’s by this sort of anti work kind of
ideology that arises out of the struggle right this sense that more jobs aren’t
the solution even you know better paying jobs aren’t the solution and in fact
it’s work itself that is alienating its wage labor itself that’s alienating it
seems to me that there is this sort of political horizon that opens up in this
period of real abundance you know for most Americans white Americans
especially in the 1960s and early 70s not just of jobs but also of material
goods you have capitalism through automation you know advancing and you
have I think in you know popular culture and I think in the popular imagination
this real sense and even Valerie Solanas talks about a fully automated society
right you have this real sense that the political horizon is the abolition of
wage labor as this sort of as Jamie said necessary evil that you have to do on
pain of starvation and death yeah totally I mean I think that like the
moment of technological change is really important to this story and of the clear
sense of automation right I mean you know the percentage of Americans who
worked in agriculture 100 years ago that we needed in order to produce the amount
of food that we eat was well over 50% and so you know with automation with
technological advancements we increase our productivity and our ability to
produce the things that we need and the thing that I think is really the
question is how do we redistribute access to them and and access to free
time as a really important aspect of our lives that we need to struggle for and
and you know I think like a lot of people have have sort of tried to
describe the Carroll a burr that they’re doing as work as a way to justify this
and I think that the political stuff is also something that they see as sort of
work or at least a productive contribution to society so I think this
gets to one of the fundamental contradictions of capitalism right
and also what I think the misconceptions about what work is nowadays right
because when we go and we talk about a post work society and when these women
are rejecting work right they’re not rejecting as you said like productive
things like you know caring for children or having a nice house or even going out
and you know making a tangible good or providing a tangible service
volunteering in their communities volunteering in the community doing
politics what they’re rejecting or they were trying to reject and critiquing was
and is today this contradiction between what is produced productive and useful
but also what is exploitative because the particular type of labor that they
were critiquing then and we can create critique now is wage labor right so you
do this work and you spend your time and you use your brains and you use your
muscles the end product of that goes off and it’s owned by somebody else and all
you get is a paycheck that allows you to just reproduce yourself for another day
now to say that you want to get rid of work doesn’t mean that nothing will be
done it means that we want to eliminate the social relationship that means that
there are the people who actually produce things and the people who
exploit the labor and take that as profits totally yeah I mean that they I
think they’re examples are really kind of illuminating in that they often were
doing like the same exact tasks at home in taking care of children and cleaning
the house as they would then be forced to do in a lot of these work fare
programs and beings are pushed into domestic labor where you’re doing the
same exact activity you’re mopping a floor you’re wiping an ass you’re
cooking a meal except you have you know I mean Marc’s got this totally right
that that not having control over both the process and the product of your
labor is deeply alienating you know and really kind of separates you from the
thing that makes you human and so if you don’t have the autonomy over what you’re
cooking you don’t get to eat it after you cooked it you don’t get to stay in
touch with the children after you raised them you don’t have any say in the
disciplinary tactics that you use right this is like it
having that it’s the epitome of alienated labor yeah so I also wanted to
ask a question about wages against housework because what we have been
talking about it sounds a lot like wages for housework I guess just the idea that
like all of this reproductive labor is done in service of capital right because
you really can’t wall off the traditional workplace from the domestic
sphere when you are reproducing the next generation of workers or even the
current generation of workers so that they can just keep on going back to
their shitty jobs at the end of the day every day and I really like the way
Sylvia Federici kind of flipped it on its head and called it wages against
housework because that even goes a step further then the model where you know
we’re all contributing productively to capitalist society and we should be
getting paid for it whether that work is in a factory or in the home whereas
wages against housework I mean I read it as sort of a provocation right because
she wasn’t saying we just need to get welfare for the house work that we’re
doing she was saying we need to figure this the fuck out and eventually abolish
it and that again reminds me of early Bolshevik thinkers like Nicole and I
talked about this quite a bit and others the idea that eventually this kind of
Sisyphus Ian drudgery rate should be socialized to the degree that that’s
possible which it is and have like socialized childcare cafeterias right
like how much time do we all spend just like cooking our food and then cleaning
up afterwards so that we can you know live to fight another day and I think
that is really I mean it’s exciting to me because I fucking hate cleaning my
house yeah we do as anyone who’s seeking it will know we won’t show you pictures
they’re not safe for work yeah just just take our word for it it’s uh it’s not
great but like yeah what do you what do you think about all that yeah I mean one
of the things that I really love about the folks were involved in wages for or
against housework their articulation is when they’re faced with this kind of
question of like well it’s too expensive how would we ever afford that and I
think that this is really Congress with the nwo’s analysis which is their
response was it’s not our fucking job to figure out what is too expensive for the
system if it’s too expensive for the system you know and the welfare rights
movement fought for this right to live that was what they wanted if it’s too
expensive to guarantee people are right to live then change the system it’s not
our job to figure out what is within the constraints of this terrible world part
of and I think that this is like a similarity that they both share is this
kind of crisis tactic right by you know the wages for housework or against
housework folks wanted to make housework too expensive that was the point if we
all have to get paid for it it will be too expensive and we will have to figure
something else out and that’s a very similar technique that the welfare
rights movement had right like okay if it’s too expensive figure it out a
different way but like we deserve the right to live decoupled from employment
and as I understand it – like Jaime said before this sort of false dichotomy
between the shop floor and the kitchen floor right it’s making that labor that
free unpaid remunerated unremunerative labor of the domestic sphere visible and
saying that this is you know it may seem free to you but there are millions upon
millions of women and men and others who are doing these activities day in and
day out and we refuse to be invisible anymore yeah and that goes back to the
materialist argument as well right because um you know I think we need both
ideals ethics and materialism and one thing I like about Marxism is it’s
really got both like these are things that I know in my heart are the right
things to do and they’re also the things that make the most sense and one way
that that is true is you know if you look at this this housework the
people want to get rid of to the degree that they can it’s more efficient to
socialize it it just is in terms of like the number of hours of labor per human
it’s just there’s there’s no contest and then you look at it oh well where can we
where where can we find some give right like what is happening here where are
their resources being wasted they could be going to this more efficient system
and if you abolish profit right if you stop letting one class of people a small
class of people survive on the stolen surplus labor of the rest of us then
like these things seem a lot more feasible right yeah I mean I think
that’s definitely that’s that’s the real answer to your question earlier right
like there is one class of people who don’t do anything and live high on the
hog or whatever the hell hey welfare greens remain right and they’re
capitalists right and what did Reagan call them the but the strapping bucks
buying steaks and driving their Cadillacs you know these welfare Kings
very racially anyways I’m sorry welfare royalty well that’s the irony of it
right and and Reagan really represents you know the backlash to this which of
course we cannot you know gloss over this even throwing the word welfare out
there just triggers a lot of people you know even liberals you mentioned
Moynihan you know even trigger some socialists
too you know because there are a lot of socialists out there who are very much
worker ists right they want you know something like a Federal jobs guarantee
because like Jamie was saying before they see the proletarianization of
everybody as one of the preconditions in order to somehow eliminate
proletarianization so let can you tease that out a little bit well I mean I
certainly think on that point that one of the the final frontier of
respectability politics that has been so hard to break down is the kind of worker
issed work ethic right you you can sort of
be lots of different variations of things but as long as you prove that
you’re a hard worker it’s fine and they really were the kind they were they were
they just I think sought to really dismantle respectability politics in all
aspects right they were really sex positive they fought a number of really
restrictive rules where you weren’t allowed to have a man in the house if
you were receiving welfare right then he would be responsible for paying but
these midnight raids that they would conduct as kind of policing of women’s
sexuality or they were being forced to be sterilized in order to to receive
welfare benefits so this like real expansive demands for bodily autonomy
for the right to money that they could do with as they chose right to not be
kind of accountable to how they were spending it or with whom and I think
that that’s a really important intervention right even in the days
where we’ve kind of made headway in at least feminists have I think in a kind
of variety of like women can dress slutty or they can dress prim or and
these are all valid feminism’s right like they were sort of I really picture
them as like the grandmas of this they assured in the way and the thing that we
have forgotten about that they really emphasized was this final frontier of
like and also fuck work oh yeah hell yeah so I also want to ask you a
question that I also asked TP Bhattacharya when she was on majority
report girl-crush forever one of these days Hillary Clinton is the auntie Queen
and teeth he is the true queen of literal communists you idiot in deed so
um yeah we’ve seen like a lot of the social contract has broken down since
the 70s as we’ve seen this shift towards neoliberalism and austerity
and like a lot of the once robust welfare programs and we’re still pretty
robust the 70s have gone away as budgets have been cut and wealth has been
transferred even further up the ladder to the 1% I always have to say that in
my Bernie voice and like this New Deal social democracy right it wasn’t ever
gonna be enough but it at least acknowledged that the reproductive labor
done mainly by women had some price tag on it and was to be included in
something like the family wage where is now we’re all expected to just like take
all of these costs on ourselves and it’s very much individualized as a matter of
individual choice like oh well if you want to have a try if you if you can’t
afford to care for children you shouldn’t have them without recognizing
that you know if the working class stopped having kids there would be no
workers and the fucking economy would collapse so can I just jump in and just
get real mad for a second please ok so fucking pure right now it reminds
me of these fucking articles that you read and like you know not even like
fucking Bloomberg or like Business Insider but like you know the New York
Times or like fucking New Republic or whatever where they like do you want to
have a child and they like it’s like a budget they like break down all the
costs for you like over the course of 18 years one child will cost you seven
hundred and forty five thousand dollars calculate your income and see how many
children you can fucking out how deranged and inhuman and quantitatively
fucking distorted society do we have that this is the way that we’re making
decisions about bringing children into the world and reproducing the next
generation of people it is a fundamentally inhuman inhumane way of
understanding the world to try to quantify these fucking things how much
is it you know how much is one woman’s one year of a woman’s domestic labor
worth you know compared to you know how much we can actually get out of you know
tax revenues and this then the other thing the whole thing is so fucking
perverse and what I respect a lot about the people that you’re talking about on
this movement this is new to me is that they saw
through this bullshit I love that I love it when you said if this system cannot
afford us a humane life then fuck the system yeah I mean you know I am
extrapolating some they didn’t go quite that far the welfare rights movement
went that far but but they they did I mean they they brought it to the Supreme
Court they attempted to like figure out a way to read the Constitution as
enshrining a constitutional right to life that would guarantee all of the
necessities of that life except for unborn children of course but going back
to my question did I you Raylan I always welcome all
right here at the anti fodder that is in the ante paro mindset oh stop being so
toxic in masculine now yes that’s also fine so given that a lot of this
reproductive labor was and is performed in the service of capital and given that
that sort of agreement is going away now we’re we’re just expected to pay for it
ourselves and the powers that be don’t even acknowledge that this stuff
benefits capital right if you want to get welfare you have to work you have to
do extra work in exchange for it like it’s it’s really bad in a lot of ways
clearly people are struggling people are dying fucking sucks but like does this
create some sort of an opening for a more an even more radical solution that
goes beyond the compromises of the New Deal and the Great Society yeah yeah I
mean that’s a really good point I really think of them as a kind of
rupture with the Great Society in that that they felt those programs were
insufficient and sort of would always be and that the there needed to be a
massive overhaul and I think that that massive overhaul they envisioned was a
lot like ubi ubi ubi you be I totally different if we had
enough UTIs uh everyone could get a little bit more ubi
suppose but that no no it’s good universal basic income is on a lot of
lips right now interestingly in this period we might want to compare the sort
of pressures of automation Wilson you were talking about before and there’s a
sort of precarity and crisis of you know the job market to the 70s to try to
maybe think about why and places like Bloomberg in The Wall Street Journal
they’re talking about a universal basic income why some countries like I believe
it was was in Norway and Switzerland have tried pilot programs or the ubi
recently had a little pilot program Finland as well
Switzerland voted on a referendum that failed a couple of years ago
no we don’t want free money take that away from us but it’s a hot topic
it’s a hot topic not just on the left but also even on the right there’s
Silicon Valley our ruling class nerds we were talking about last episode are
talking about ubi is a solution to them automating all of our livelihoods out of
existence so what’s up with that what’s up with the ubi and maybe that
interlocks with another question we have written down on the sheet here which is
why is this important for radical today well I think it’s back today because
partially because despite the really low unemployment rates like you know
official unemployment rates we know that there’s a lot of people that go
uncounted by that wages are still really down and people are really struggling
like this fantasy of work work work as the solution feels very fraudulent to
our generation at the very least if not to others right I mean we’re all working
a ton and can’t make ends meet you know people working 70 hours a week
you tell them oh we’re gonna get more work for you you like yeah how much more
time do I have right this might be a digression but like really fucking chaps
my ass than at any other point in 20th century history probably I would be
making a comfortable middle-class living as a writer in the portion of my career
that I’m current um but I am NOT and most of the writers
I know even the fairly very successful ones do other things on the side whether
its consulting or sex work or like fucking anything so that they can
support what they love to do and like and that’s not just in New York like one
of the things that we kept hearing about him out of those teacher strikes in
Oklahoma in West Virginia right people with a solid what used to be
middle-class job driving uber working at the grocery store farming like a whole
range of the second and third jobs that they had to hold in order to be able to
afford to be a teacher like so so there’s I think there’s a kind of
legitimacy of work as the means to a good life that is being challenged by
the difficulties that we are all facing and there is the you know the
technological right there’s this massive divide between productivity and income
so it’s very clear to us now who’s gaining all of the benefits of the
productivity increases like I was always afraid that I would never become
successful but I didn’t realize that I could become somewhat successful and
still be fucking bro you had to clarify your wish to the
genie a little bit right like hmm yeah exactly that’s a the cirillo legalese
that got me on it loophole like I figured by the time I was at the point
my career if I ever got there where I was fucking writing for Rolling Stone
that I would not have to worry too much about money like I would have you know
not a ton of money probably but I don’t know like a decent like $50,000 a year
say and that’s just not the case a kitchen where I could chop the
vegetables while you saw tell you them both at the same time I mean we’re
bumping butts the entire time your mouth to God’s ears babe one difference to is
that is the transnational nature of capital and capitalist production
nowadays so for all the talk of like this force urgent social democracy and a
ubi things are vastly different in terms of where things are made
where the profits are going how quickly capital can move from one place to
another and also the relative I won’t even say capabilities but prerogatives
of the individual nation-state you know in order to kind of rein in capital or
keep capital inside which adds a very very different sort of dimension to this
ubi and this automation question right because no longer can you kind of wall
off your Herrenvolk you know Social Democratic United States
from like these outside forces right a ubi on a you know nationwide scale
almost seems like it’s insufficient at this point in time if you know things
are being produced in Malaysia and China and then being sent to the US and people
are working shitty service jobs here I think you get where I’m going with that
right yeah yeah the question of immigration has always been one that
kind of plagues folks who are into ubi right what is the community that you’re
talking about and and how will you sort of police outsiders right if it’s a
national program how strict will your borders have to be or how long will have
people have to be in the country before you allow them to have this benefit as
well I mean I think that to me is probably one of the thorny or technical
questions but I still think that in the way that it allows us to really think
about a life where income and labor are decoupled and labor is D commodified
that it’s one of the most compelling solutions and to me it’s certainly and I
think that the women that I study have a lot to say on this right that that there
are ways that full employment programs are really unappealing especially
because I think that we can fairly safely assume that one can’t just create
awesome jobs out of thin air and that folks who are really kind of fetishized
full employment programs don’t take into account the history of you know attempts
at government has last resort employment like in the u.s. especially during the
New Deal you know how just how difficult it was to implement any of those Public
Works programs and how quickly they had to be
it really like before the government before the economy had even fully
recovered because the business communities were just losing their minds
over the government providing jobs for people at decent wages this gets to I
think at the heart of what is radical about both ubi and a Federal jobs
guarantee and part of why I’m relatively agnostic on them is that we drive the
fucking capitalist crazy with a ubi what it essentially does is take away what
you babe said before about the threat of you know the implicit threat of not
going out to work is you starve to death or you’re homeless
so ubi takes that power implicit in the capitalist social relation and
eliminates it right it says that you’re gonna presumably get enough basic income
that you don’t have to go work for any job at any wage right yeah there’s going
to be a floor that you can’t fall under and the federal jobs guarantee is Wilson
pointed out in the New Deal drives capitalist crazy because all of a sudden
now you know the slack as they call it in the labor market is completely gone
which gives workers tons more freedom to be militant and radical and demanding
you know not just with wages but on the shop floor how things are run this then
the other thing so ubi and a Federal jobs guarantee both do these things
which is it that it swings it would could swing if done correctly radically
the power that labor has labor not even the organized sense but wage labor is
you know to make demands and to actually win them because with zero unemployment
or zero threaten of starving to death you don’t have to take a job at $9 an
hour you know doing back-breaking horrible work for some asshole boss yeah
I mean I think the idea behind it is it’s sort of analogous to the public
option but with jobs instead of health care so like and they would all be at
$15 an hour minimum wage and I think that’s the Federal jobs guarantee plan
that Bernie Sanders has laid out correct me if I’m wrong so like it creates a
floor that people can’t fall below and it makes people less afraid of losing
their jobs in a labor action or whatever so they could just go out and find a
decent government job that pays 15 bucks an hour and also I think a lot of these
jobs at least as folks like Derek Hamilton have described it would be in
service of fulfilling and returning these basic social services to people or
in some cases giving it to them for the first time like health care if we were
to have a national health service that would be an enormous employer as well as
socialized care work for children or the elderly as well as rebuilding our
crumbling infrastructure so I think it’s a it’s like a short-term solution
probably but I I do I get where you’re coming from and I think a lot of people
would criticize it as a kind of work fair I’ll be it much better than the
kind that we had say under Clinton in the 90s but um yeah I guess Sean wants
to say something no no no I thought to Wilson on that cuz cuz she threw out a
good point right which is that you know you were saying Oh instead of like you
know wiping my own grandfather’s ass at home we’re now gonna go out you’re gonna
give me a certain amount of money to live off of but I’m gonna go do it for a
government job you know socially work fair doing the same thing but in a more
alienated way so in a sense the federal job guarantee doesn’t even really
overcome that fundamental alienation issue yeah I don’t I don’t personally
think that it does it’s better than working at Walmart though right sure but
being in charge of that wasn’t better than feet’ll isn’t yeah I mean you know
the famous John Robinson quote the only thing worse than not being exploited as
being exploited I said not unemployment argument yeah
that’s fair but um the the point that I wanted to make too is that you know
Silicon Valley and others have floated this ubi thing and now some Liberal
Democrats for you know good faith or just opportunistic reasons are talking
about full employment again which we haven’t done since the nineteen
seventies even rhetorically right the big question is you know who’s the
constituency for this you know who out there within trumps America you know are
going to want to have this massive government intervention no matter what
the program might be right they hate you know minorities they hate immigrants
right they’re very protective of their personal property you know they have
guns and they are you know tea cots and fucking angry white men right there’s a
really great article and it’s it’s actually an opinion piece from July 19th
called liberal blind spots they could just end with that every New York Times
op-ed could just be liberal blind spots but now this one’s really good liberals
by sarrish Marsh liberal blind not a real name no it’s a real Cyrus Marsh
Marsh smarsh hey look she’s got a good InfoSec right although nobody could make
up their name all right so it’s called liberal blind spots are hiding the truth
about scare quote trump country so it says for one thing it’s not Trump
country most struggling White’s I know here live a life of quiet desperation
mad at their white bosses not resentful towards their co-workers or neighbors of
color so similar to what is happening in this history that you’re describing to
us right this whole article and people should read it because it’s good and
it’s amazing it made it into the Times shows that this radical or potentially
militant discontent with work and not just the material gains that you get
from your wage labor in your shitty job or even decent job but the dignity right
and you know that the domination that you face every day and the inability to
piss when you want to piss you know you have to show up at a certain time every
day once you’re in there you’re free speech rights go away it’s this private
tyranny right it’s in this article in this op-ed they’re talking about this
happening in Trump country so a lot of these people who made a very poor choice
in pulling the lever for our orange man they could potentially be persuaded
towards very progressive or potentially like non
reformist reform programs because if you look at it more people feel in their
day-to-day the exploitation and domination of the bosses than they do
the government but there is no political or even media force out there that’s
pushing that narrative and giving voice to these people who feel this
development I mean I just saw Alexandria Ocasio Cortez making just that point on
the news the other day when she had a joint I think she had some sort of joint
appearance with Bernie Sanders and you know the quote/unquote liberal media is
very quick to wave away victories like hers by saying oh well what works in the
Bronx would never play in middle America what middle America needs and what
Democrats need to win elections in middle America is to move to the center
aka to the right and become moderates and she said that’s just not fucking
true she has strong class politics that do not conflict in any way with her
conception of quote identity politics it’s all tied together and she said
wherever there are working-class people these politics are going to succeed what
they are saying is bullshit and I thought that was really inspiring
I hope that that’s correct and I think that there is no political party in the
United States that has stood on that platform in a mass way I don’t think in
US history maybe the Socialist Party back in the early 20th century or the
American Labor Party back in the 1940s but I think that when you talk about
with AOC and Bernie Sanders you know as much as their vision and their critique
we might find insufficient it is opening the doors to these ideas like you bi
federal jobs guarantee right we do have an opening right now on the left and you
know like those women did back in the 60s and 70s that door has been slightly
cracked open so maybe we can kick it the fuck open you know yeah yeah I think that like that jump from hating
your boss to really critiquing capitalism is you know it’s a big it’s a
big jump and that it takes for lack of a better word consciousness-raising
mobilizing right I mean in the same way that women have sort of felt isolated in
marriages and hated their husbands but not been able to make the leap to
critiquing patriarchy that it requires a kind of organized ideological cohesive
thing other than otherwise we can sort of stay stuck in like TGI Fridays like
yeah everybody loves Friday but no one can think about what if every day was
Saturday yeah you don’t work Mondays you hate capitalist or alter and I’m
thinking about what you just said like that this disgruntled you know attitude
towards the boss started to express itself in the 1980s with going postal
you know and shooting up your fuckin job place and like shooting your boss I mean
that’s not cool we had a guy in my Union last year who got laid off by a foreman
and he went home and he got a handgun and he went to the job site went up to
the 13th floor where they were pouring concrete and this guy shot his Foreman
in the face and then killed himself which does show that this guy was
somewhat disgruntled towards his work situation but that is not let’s say a
very effective way of moving things forward in a progressive direction so I
agree with you you’re right that instinctually it’s there but obviously
this anger needs to be focused at who is really benefiting from this and who
really ultimately is to blame and who is our class enemy which of course is the
capitalist class and their lackeys the running dogs yeah it goes back to our
friend Jared’s story that he provides right I punched my boss in the face
which is a great headline it was very satisfying for him to punch his boss in
the face who’s also your boss everybody actually everybody out there just close
your eyes for five seconds – just imagine punching your boss in the face
amigo I don’t want to punish my boss in the face no not you I meant our
listeners we love Sam cedar do i touch me in the face do you see I have a real
family list bosses go he’s not bad not bad at all your dad on your boss he’s
got big dad energy I’m sure as satisfying as it was for a French heir
to punch his boss in the face he ultimately recognized that that was
something he did by himself and it didn’t really get him anything in
the long term so really he was just punching himself and we only get what we
want and we only go to a productive place in the long term when we act
collectively and I think that is a big way that people get class consciousness
is when they act collectively as a group like I saw some teachers speak at the
socialism conference in Chicago recently and there was one lady I think she was
from West Virginia actually I got a fact check that after the show but she said
you know I had a moment where I was in the kitchen with my husband and I said
you know our labor belongs to us and she’d never thought of it that way but
she was but but they were both like yeah it does belong to us and like from that
moment forward they were just and and they gained this consciousness in the
course of just like organizing in order to survive like that’s all that they
could do and from that moment forward they were just so so conscious it’s so
fierce in fighting collectively for their rights and I don’t know I I think
leftist of all stripes have found those struggles really inspiring and would
like to see more of the same totally yeah I mean it’s one of the reasons why
it annoys me so much that my Union the PSC is just such a sort of wet blanket
on any kind of militancy because I think it’s precisely through militancy that we
gain more militancy right it’s not by sort of waiting for someone to tell us
what to do that we build a strong and powerful
union and these women that you know the the nwro women they were totally
radicalized through the struggle right it wasn’t necessarily that they set out
to become these political actors but that they realized that was their power
now I want to go back to something we talked about a way back when we talked
about struggles that aren’t happening necessarily at the point of production
but organizing that’s happening outside of that and the potentials of that you
know you would get the sense from this talk that you know people only do things
out of their own material self interests or that you know it takes a leap of
consciousness to you know get beyond that there’s the most amazing and
probably most inspiring strike story I think in US labor history is one that I
think shows the power of having not just organizations like unions militant
unions within the workplace but also having the kind of organizing you were
talking about with these welfare rights militants in the 70s in the height of
the labor fight back in the in 1934 this is when the you know there were massive
strikes wildcat strikes it down strikes recognition strikes this is basically
this the hottest year in American labor history we had three general strikes in
one year and we’ve had one since then in 1948 but there was a plant called auto
light it was in Toledo Ohio and this is the Great Depression and the folks there
had had a union as they were building you know machine parts and basically the
company decided that they wanted to get rid of the Union so they locked the
workers out now what would happen today if you locked the workers out and said
you know you’re gonna be to syrtis foot to certify we’re gonna get replacement
workers is that you’d find you know thousands of thousands of people who
would line up for you know even a decent non-union job in that factory but when
it happened in a level of militancy and the level of organization and a level of
class consciousness that’s call it let’s call it in Toledo Ohio in 1934
learn a bunch of commies and you know we jokingly talk shit on trots but they
were Trotskyists they had formed the year before an unemployed workers union
now imagine that right that’s like a work you know like a welfare rights
organization right how do you have a union of people who are unemployed well
basically they got all the unemployed in Toledo together and they said you know
what your workers to you might be out of the workplace right now you might not be
selling your labor at this moment you may be the reserve army of Labor as Marx
called it but here’s a union card right and pay your dues someday when you get a
job so when the bosses right they had a they were basically they opened the
gates the the picketers were outside and you know they basically thought that
their strike was going to fall apart because all these replacement workers
we’re gonna come in they saw this giant line of men coming up to the gates then
like up here come the scabs here come the replacement workers and as these
group of striking workers and these new workers arrived to each other all of the
unemployed workers union members took out their union cards and raised them in
the air and then the strikers realized what happened and they took their union
cards out and wave them in the air and the unemployed workers joined the picket
lines and shut the factory down until the management caved so that goes to
show that this is not you know some wild-eyed fantasy shit you know when you
have organizing outside of the point of production you can make real wins when
it comes to actual you know labor struggles that shut shit down and
ultimately the auto light strike strike in Toledo was won in nineteen thirty
four because they organized everybody so that nobody would fucking scab Mazel Tov
yeah and another point I wanted to make about quote unquote red states that they
really touched upon at the socialism conference at the teachers plenary talk
is that you know quote unquote coastal elites want to paint all of these folks
with the same brush and say this is Trump country but I think in West
Virginia only something like 27% of the population actually voted for Trump so
that kind of puts the lie to what folks like joy and Reid say oh you teachers
you hate austerity why did you vote for Trump
why didn’t you vote for Hillary like shut the fuck up
so we want to talk about ubi for a minute right we’ve seen people on the
left and on the right making arguments in favor of it and it always makes me a
little nervous when I see some like technocratic libertarians advocating for
a specific policy so what are some of the left critiques of ubi how what are
the different ways it could be carried out and this might be a question like a
couple questions from now but like how do you see ubi fitting into sort of a
long term socialist horizon because I know a lot of people have portrayed it
as at least potentially a kind of non reformist reform that eventually brings
us closer to socialism yeah well I think certainly one of the leftist critiques
is that it’s been popular on the right and from technocrats and from you know
Barack Obama last week mentioned that maybe a ubi would be necessary in his
homage to Nelson Mandela alarm bells start going off right Hillary Clinton in
her like what went wrong book or whatever what happened
I believe the title was how you all failed me
did she really fucking say something about ubi or she said like I wanted to I
wanted to go for it but I wasn’t sure it was the right time or something she was
like I would be on board with that that’s I mean she said that about
everything but the fact that she felt compelled to say bit about ubi in the
book does say something right yeah I mean it’s but but ubi has always been
something that had supporters from the right and from the left right it’s
constantly been Milton Friedman was a big proponent in the you know in the
Nixon Nixon put forward this plan right in in 1971 the family assistant plan I’m
assuming that the right you know like Milton Friedman and Richard Nixon wanted
it for different reasons than the left my understand is that Milton Friedman
wanted basically for two replace all of the other welfare social
security medicaid type programs that exist and have it just be sort of like a
distributional equivalent of like a flat tax right like a ha you know you get
this check and that’s the Hunger Games you know I mean I think that with policy
it’s always always always a truism that the Devils are in the details and what
the amount just set up right Nixon wanted it set at sixteen or seventeen
hundred dollars a year the nwro wanted it’s that their initial demand was five
thousand five hundred and in a couple years it went up to seventy five hundred
which would be the equivalent of around thirty two thousand dollars a year in
you know current dollars so the amount of money certainly would make a big
difference I think that there’s a lot of ways that you know what are we willing
to trade in order to get it is a big question right like will we give up
universal health care and just buy everything on the market I think all of
these things depend on the strength of the social forces about a time in which
we’re mobilizing for it and and you know I’m against concessionary bargaining of
all kinds I don’t think we give up anything I think we just want more can
you tell my Union delegates that yeah on line two please
the thing that freaks me out about it especially when you hear libertarians
like Elon Musk talking about it shout-out to my space baby Lonnie this
songs for you you wanna spend but like the idea cuz
they know where this is going they want to automate all the jobs that they can
and after they do that they want us hypoid to have just enough so that we
can live in poverty and not cut their heads off yeah and I fuckin chafe
against that sorry part of me feels like they they’re pretty bright people and
they see trends I mean they’re obviously fuckin socially
backwards and nerdy psycho sociopaths who are happy to exploit people and
destroy the planet while they do some woo meditation retreat and the fucking
ski ski slopes of Utah but like part of me feels like they actually do realize
the implications of the technologies and the automation that they are in the
process of trying to create right now and so perhaps like the fact that
they’re into it shows that maybe there is something to this like you know
automation through capitalist development has always led to increased
jobs and other sectors but maybe the capitalist class or sectors of it the
more forward-thinking sectors are starting to be like yeah well maybe if
we automate all the clerical work all the service industry work all the
trucking you know all of like the cars and everything like that yes and and
even teaching now you’ve got Jamie’s yatha at that horrible Ozzy fest and the
woman was talking about when entrepreneurial education one teacher
teaching like 5,000 kids so there go all your teachers like millions of teachers
in the United States automated out of existence but it’s every teacher’s dream
to reach thousand students all over the world via the magic of the webcam
technology and not even have to talk to the parents like that is actually
advertised as a benefit on the VIP kid website and the starting salary I looked
it up on the website is like $14 an hour plus incentives so and this is
parenthetical but part of the reason why those teachers who struck in all those
states and especially West Virginia were powerful is because teachers and parents
have a relationship right that’s part of like being in this care educational type
work and if they can destroy that connection and along with collective
bargaining and along with like you know that school as an actual physical place
then all the fucking better but they made what they’re worried about is well
yeah like you said you know eventually they’re gonna come and they’re gonna
fucking guillotine it Madame guillotines always in the fucking back of their
minds or should be that’s why they wanted to solve the social bonds right
I’m I think that I think that we could think
about a lot of the like really big benefits that a ubi would have that
maybe could like get us closer to socialism and one is like one of my
favorite descriptions of a ubi is as an unlimited strike fund hell yeah I heard
that before how do we how do we build powers by giving people the ability to
walk away and to not be terrified by what’s gonna happen when they walk away
that’s you know that’s even more than the Taylor law that’s the reason that
every adjunct I speak to at CUNY says is you know I can’t afford to lose my job I
can’t afford to I couldn’t even possibly think about going on strike like the
kind of power that we could imagine the working class having when it is no
longer afraid to go on strike is fairly monumental and I think shouldn’t be
discounted you know you talk about this some with a jobs guarantee but I work
for a you know a state institution now and I’m not allowed to strike so I’m not
like very sure that having a jobs guarantee via the federal government
would like enshrine my right to strike and well I mean your point to the flip
side of a lot of this conversation too is like the these ubi proposals of being
floating around but at the same time you know 80 years of labor law that was
actually able to tame the militancy of like that autolite strike in 1934 the
general strike in San Francisco the general strike in Minneapolis you know
all this happening and you know the this real high tide of workers militancy you
know the Wagner Act the National Labor Relations Act of 1934 or is it 35 one of
them 35 it institution 7a thank you God stop
women’s splaining no no that’s great I love that you’re you’re like I’m getting
both thank you I think he’s blushing yes I love women who explain obscure legal
labor acts yeah it’s a it’s hard on tinder to find that but at any rate no
like in a lot of ways I think there’s a very common left critique the
the uneasy truce between capital and labor that happened coming out of that
period not only created quote-unquote the great you know middle class of the
Golden Age of capitalism from the 40s to the 70s but also constrained a Labor’s
ability to actually act as a militant shopfloor grassroots force that could
push their demands forward so while you have this conception of the ubi coming
they’re also eliminating labor law so that you know if you want to throw those
laws out the window that’s fine but maybe we’re gonna start acting like it’s
1934 again well I think that also one of the things that I find really compelling
about a ubi that maybe I don’t feel enough left just talked about are the
kinds of environmental benefits that we could imagine you know New Zealand is
the company in New Zealand is piloting a four-day week and they’ve seen like
their electricity output plummet by twenty percent the amount of pollution
from commuting even just you know when we talk about the the coal miners and
they’re kind of like wanting them to be able to have good lives and that often
having been tied to this horrific allah polluting industry that i think that ubi
is is a really important intervention into that like we have enough shit we
don’t have to just produce shit so that people have jobs we could also have more
time to be able to do stuff in may be slower ways that requires less like
spending money in order to get something really quickly because we’re running
between our five fucking jobs and need to like buy all this plastic shit to you
know feed ourselves in-between those jobs yeah it’s like a virtual acai chol
virtual list fertilis cycle because like as you said the more we’re like working
70 hours a week and jumping from job to job the less time like we have to cook
our own food like i clean our own houses so that then becomes even more
commodified because you’ve got to stop it like you know McDonald’s or something
to pick up a burger because you’re jumping from job to job the job you
don’t have the time to do these things yeah
not to mention something like air travel like Sean and I talked quite a lot about
how we’re gonna do things after the rebbe’s it’s like what’s our favorite
topics kind of pillow talk actually one of our favorite topics to talk about you
know after how we’re gonna drown both the cats in a pillow case that’s
also sexy I haven’t done it yet that would not fly in my house that’s
why you’re not part of our polish it about them right in front of their faces
and what you’d like to know what’s the point of having a marriage if you can
just in post-coital bliss lay down on the mattress and imagine fully-automated
luxury case based on you know cat one of the things we like to talk about is how
we’re gonna do things after the rev and something like air travel could be
severely limited right because why do people have to fly everywhere in planes
because I have to get back to their fucking jobs you know what is also a
good way to travel a boat a sailboat has zero carbon emissions and I would I
would really enjoy that just to take a maybe I’ll take a boat next time we go
to Europe you know well if again we’re not now I have to go
to work maybe I’ll take the boat you know after after communism when we go to
Europe well this brings us back I think to like the fundamental point and I
think a major part of my politics and Jaime’s politics and it sounds like
blouson your politics too is that it’s not because we come from a privileged
position because none of us are fucking rich and it’s not because we have some
sort of infantile fantasies about oh you know wouldnt it be so nice if I could
just lay on the beach all the time like a fucking slob it’s because like real in
real material terms right the productivity right now of capital the
ability for the ability to create those use values those tangible objects that
help to make our lives you know meaningful but also easy like
dishwashers and things of this sort capitalism has the tendency you know
towards automation it has the tendency towards making these things with less
and less inputs of not just labor but also machinery right
so the fundamental communist horizon is that if we were to take these things out
of the profit system if you were take to take the production of goods and
services out of the profit system that you could literally have all not just
first world but all the p8 billion people or whatever it is on earth
radically reduce the amount of time that they spend you know working for somebody
else for a wage and create the sort of humane system that is based not on
exchange of goods but actually on the useful things that can be created and
automating those things to the fullest so that we progressively lessen and
lessen lessen the amount of time that we have to go through doing drudgery and
you know basically wasting our lives with dead time as we do under capitalism
for 40 60 80 90 hours a week that’s my vision right is that we have the
material means right now to overcome work all overcome wage labor and it’s
merely the mode of production and the social relations that we have right now
under capitalism that are stopping that from happening
yeah production for productions sake it’s just fucking stupid like you were
talking about earlier with the environment I know we got a little bit
into the weeds on the last episode when I brought up a point that someone made
at the socialism conference which is he cited a study saying that if we were to
have a green new deal the amount of economic activity that would be
generated by that under capitalism would basically cancel out any environmental
benefit that we would get from it and that kind of tracks with what you’re
just saying I feel like a lot of people don’t always make the connection between
this kind of economic activity production for production sake and the
ways in which the environment gets destroyed socialists haven’t been forced
to reckon with this I think so intensely as we are in this generation it’s always
been a kind of like the immediate concern is making sure that we can
produce enough at least you know in Russia or Soviet Union or figuring out
how to get everyone jobs but those can’t be our main concerns anymore right we we
are like so clearly aware of the catastrophic wreckage that climate
change is causing around us I mean even even from our little privileged bubble
in Brooklyn but I thought we were gonna solve it through entrepreneurship and
technological innovation is that not true did Aussie Fest lie to me it was
all lies you spent a hundred and twelve dollars
for a day of Lies plus the finalists for the acid or whatever oh yeah I mean I
got paid to write the article but are there any more critiques you want to
make a ubi yeah I mean I just don’t beat a dead horse like I one of the critiques
that folks raised especially feminists about ubi is that it would just further
entrench the gendered division of labor so that better policy is that they would
hope for would be like better childcare or better maternity leave or those kinds
of things and I think that we can ask for those and ask for ubi as well you
know their fear is that women will just be stuck doing the things that they have
always been stuck doing because it will sort of make more financial sense and I
think this is really one of the examples where the kinds of problems that people
run into and having these high-level theoretical arguments without looking at
the history of how people have approached this or you know we haven’t
even talked about the many experiments that have been conducted on ubi and the
kinds of really remarkable feminist outcomes that those showed so like in in
Manitoba in the 70s they conducted a big ubi experiment that a friend David
Kellen ski has written about extensively and one of the big findings from that
was that rates of domestic violence plummeted and divorce rates increased
awesome right because women had the means to leave abusive marriages I mean
we don’t know exactly what the causal mechanisms
but like we can certainly assume that women have the means to leave some
abusive marriages maybe some of the stress factors causing domestic abuse
were mitigated by people not having the terror of financial instability hanging
over them almost not it you can’t do it direct like correlation between that and
like you were saying before the like unlimited strike fund but if you look at
the domestic sphere of like the home as a place of production then like yeah
it’s the same thing right it’s like a strike fund for women who don’t want to
deal with abuse anymore who don’t want to deal with shitty partners anymore
good walk away – exactly what I was saying about me – right and the sort of
political limits of the way it is now we like to do a segment at the end of the
anti Fattah called getting personal and it kind of fell off for the past few
weeks yeah we’re not very personable people on
we were all you’re the best tech garden gnome that the world has ever seen
yeah I think we were all just like very excited to talk about the things we were
talking about and we forgot to talk about ourselves in each other and also
really tired after I was that is true that’s true not like now I’m not tired
at all right now I’m like totally fucking awake not twenty hours on that
Rolling Stones article I didn’t stay up late listening to chapo to see if they
said my name that’s not a thing that I would ever do no so anyway um we have a
segment we like to call getting personal and I would like to kick it off for a
question with a question for you Wilson yeah and that is Wilson
how many Bernie bro boyfriends do you now have as a result of rejecting
Hillary Clinton and stabbing your fellow women in the back a special place in
hell oh my god did the bed that was that was the point that Gloria Steinem made
right I think that we might we just have to come full circle and take a moment
Gloria Steinem and her CIA apologist oh my good hey the CIA is woke now don’t
get it twisted is the most vile vile vile form of bourgeois feminism
and the fact that people worship her because she’s pretty is so abhorrent and
you’re a terrible terrible feminist if you like Gloria Steinem because she’s
pretty and you look past her CIA apology bullshit that ass I mean as one of my
favorite historical figures once said four walls is three too many for Gloria
Steinem oh hey I don’t like Gloria Steinem because she’s pretty who’s I
like her because she’s a bougie ass piece of shit like B all right get it
right that was tanky Lena Dunham right there
and that’s Jamie a character Jamie’s working on tankey Lena Dunham
I’m still working out the kinks people who subscribe to Lenny letter and also I
don’t know like uphold the immortal science of Mao Zedong Thought there’s
like maybe 12 people and that’s the core audience we’re looking for if we have 12
people to listen a thousand times to every episode we’ll be doing great all
right yes I asked Liza the same question so you
got a pretty high bar to it oh man you lose Liza feathers you’ve been asking me
the same questions as my all-time greatest hits of Marxist feminism laughs
Liza Liza’s good people we shall have dinner sometime again soon I know that
well we don’t all all of us never had dinner together but I know you’ve had
Doug analyzes actually they’re in they’re out of town I think for the rest
of the summer but we’ll make it happen don’t be back I’ll be back very
important question how many Bernie bro boyfriends did I score from stabbing you
heard me in the back by undermining the Afghan garbed goddess of feminism oh man
that was a dark time was anyone getting laid then it was so traumatizing not
even 42 Gloria Steinem and Madeleine Albright we were I think I actually was
sleeping with the one black Trump supporter and so it was a very very
confusing moment in my wait isn’t that actually a plot out of
girls from you know she has been stealing a lot of plot lines in my life
growing up in New York and Tribeca with like an already mom I mean the
narcissism of small differences it’s definitely an accusation that’s been
leveled at me before due to my dislike for Lena Dunham but I
don’t even hate the showgirls like I think it’s pretty good actually I just
don’t like it when she tries to run her mouth off about political things that
she has no fucking clue about like sex work is it fair to say Wilson that like
your your life story is would be like Lena Dunham like if you had a soul if
she had a soul I mean like you’re like marks this Lena Dunham yeah and with
less terrible tattoos oh yeah I think the agent for fuck what’s her name
she’s a really good writer Gloria Steinem yeah the agent for this really
good writer that I follow on Twitter whose name I can’t remember a team of
people she’s like haha definitely not her she’s like Lena Dunham without the
money you know this uh this writer his name escapes me I’ll probably cut this
part out because I can’t remember hangar by room she’s really good though and she
kind of she kind of miss um but no uh-uh honey ways Wilson back to the question
darling yeah so you’re at your job Stalin take Lena needs to know you’re
banging out black Trump supporter during the election season which was very very
woke of you and really hot was the sex worth it is the question fair Oh sidebar
you know what plot she stole from my life uh Wilson no but maybe I hope not
don’t do this when she’s like trying to break up with Adam spoiler alert and he
just starts jerking off and he’s like oh just stay here and I’m gonna jerk off in
front of you and she’s like it’s just kind of stands there until he
comes and it’s really gross and weird and kind of violent way so louis c.k was
dating Lena Dunham at the time unfortunately
wait did you date louis c.k fuck is happening
unfortunately there’s more than one guy who does that it’s just become the woke
Howard Stern Show you know what that might not be a bad mark to hit we’re all
ready what the brew negs would sound like on uppers and with more one of our
nice if this is if this was like whoa cowards turn like it would be me on the
sibian writing the sybian and like you listen to my orgasms and like laughing
at me while I did it Jamie is walking towards the cabin
what’s she pulling out you think there’s not a sybian in this office the real
radio I assume every uh every radio DJ has been hanging around somewhere every
radio DJ from the night when they initiate you into the air America Club
they give you a complimentary sibian to ride Fairtrade sibian a liberal liberal
crowd exploitation free it was crafted by Guatemalan artisans finest Fairtrade
materials imagine like a sybian made of wood that’s just cold
that’s wintry yeah well we’ll work on that concept
I mean anti fauna has to get some branded material like some merch
eventually maybe we’ll make like a woke Fairtrade so yeah that that says anti
Fattah on it and it’s like for insertion into orifices but not women’s only men’s
I thought a sybian isn’t it a dildo that also like my you’re so innocent
do you have a tubular house whoa pregnant pause no they look like a
little too intense for me like if I don’t like the Hitachi Magic Wand TMI you know maybe the branded sibian
will be like when we hit a thousand patrons patreon special reward for our
anti Fosse / stars but how much money would that cost to send a branded sibian
like handcrafted by Guatemalan we might need to add a few more tears the $1,000
the sibian tier $1000 but anyway back to our guest and getting personal with her
guests I think she’s done with us being personal oh good try well we’re not done the question of dating while not just a
feminist not just a Marxist but a fucking Marxist feminist what a labor
organizer is and labor organizer what what has your experience had that been
pretty good or um gala what it did really brings the Trump boys to the yard
it’s a fucking disaster that’s all I’m listening you don’t have
to say anything here that you wouldn’t say to your psychotherapist or dating
being a Marxist feminist I don’t know where doesn’t even start it’s a
complicated you start with a peck on the cheek you start by going on tinder so
they tell me yeah I think it’s it’s hard to figure
out um men are just tough creatures I holy shit I don’t know how to say
anything funny it’s all just really depressing I guess it’s fine you don’t
even have to go there sometimes depressing things are funny at least
that’s how I deal with that in my life when they happen to me um well you said
that you had some ideas on or some I’m sorry system can I can I just
a sidebar for a second does everybody know who Laura Loomer is nope she I feel
like we might have made fun of her on the majority report yeah she is an alt
right disgusting piece of shit I think she’s worked for Project Veritas which
was what’s that fucking little douchebags name the fucking ginger who
needs skin no I know you’re talking about that guy that fuck you know he
like they destroyed a corn and all that shit
anyways Laura Loomis she like worked with that fucking piece of shit but she
had a big Twitter thing where she was complaining about how men she’d go on
tinder dates with him and then she’d like revealed that she was a trump
supporter and they would just like walk off so here’s a jade here’s a tweet from
her right here Laura Loomer this is from a couple days ago
Laura Loomer one time I went on a date with a 30 year old Jewish lawyer in New
York cuz she’s Jewish by the way for our first and only date he took me to his
fave 9 restaurant when I said I voted for Trump the guy proceeded to attack me
over tacos about how mean I was for wanting the wall what did he stab her
with a fork or something no man like she can’t even go out a Mexican day without
something like that they’re all always at Mexican restaurant fuck really pumps
up the sense of dramatic irony there however I just miss use that word well
maybe it would be like you know how like in New York now like it’s very rare to
find like an Italian making like pizza at a place because like you know it’s
mostly like Latinos who work in the service industry nowadays so they’ll be
like a you know an Italian like you know manager italian-american manager maybe
they want a world where like they can still have all the litte fucking Mexican
food they want but is made by like fresh-faced fucking Aryan children or
something like that probably I think the quality would drop dramatically I’m glad
that the Jewish lawyer walked out on her shout out to him shout out today do you
are come on auntie fara yeah you sound cool we’re willing to have you on
anytime just hit us up and he thought of mindset at gmail.com
and the underscore Eddie father on Twitter or Jamie underscore Elizabeth on
Twitter or I just come to our house and hang out I live at 743 Main Street New
York New York one zero zero zero zero zero zero one apartment 14 88 did you
just dock the mayor or something we just talked someone remember we got drunk and
we prank called the mayor’s personal cellphone offend god oh my god that was
so bad it happened we’re bad I mean my bad sometimes I had
a my friend who will remain nameless worked on the City Council for a while
when de Blasio was the Public Advocate and you know the it’s a pretty
incestuous little thing downtown you know at the what do you call a city hall
down there and you know he just got de Blasio’s personal phone number as the
Public Advocate and you know they text and chat or whatever and a couple of
months ago we went out to my uncle’s like old man bar and Woodhaven Queens
you know you can imagine the scene and we are completely fucking hammered was
it so woke it was the least woke place I was hanging out with an NYPD detective a
retired sanitation worker some guy from my Union and my really old great uncle
who was not tending bar that night but I took more shots than all of us put
together isn’t real strong he’s a real strong man but by the end of the night
we ended up at this really shitty hipster bar where my friends closed a
lot of trouble one of them definitely choked some guy out they were chanting
at the bartender slash as it turns out owner of this bar they were chanting
Ohio at him because they just assumed he was some hipster from Ohio yo fuck you you’re never going home
Ohio fuck is wrong with you people we had had
a bit a bit to drink and then the the for our final act our friend whose name
starts with the D took out his cell phone I said hey you guys know I got
Bill de Blasio’s personal cell phone number and we’re like no and my friend
my other friend grabs a phone and he dials it and let me put it on speaker
and this loud ass bar and it only went like three rings then I went to
voicemail but dead-ass it was like you’ve reached Bill DeBlasio I’m
unavailable to take your phone call please call me back at your earliest
convenience but we did not have the balls to leave a voicemail why does your
DeBlasio sound like Cosby I think that’s just like your generic voice that you
use now for all neoliberal politician yeah now I feel like de Blasio likey I
feel like he kind of has like an Obama voice for some reason like let me be
clear I want to do something about affordable housing by up zoning all of
the black roads get all of them out and moving all those people but also pull up
your pants yes like Cosby Obama de Blasio Nexus but back to the Laurel uber
thing like I don’t think these schools fucking realize that having a guy walk
out on a tinder date with you is like so much less than you deserve yeah you
deserve to be in a fucking gulag if you’re out there spreading racism and
hatred throughout the country on the internet on TV as she does like that’s
that’s the thing about these ice protests you like oh no they can’t eat
dinner in a Mexican restaurant anymore like they they don’t deserve to be
walking free like a fucking loogie in their burrito is getting up so fucking
easy and like at the very the very least the very least that they should have to
put up with it’s just having to breed with their own kind so that they don’t
pollute the rest of us with their rotten ideology by that she does not mean Jews
she means all right people indeed because Lauren Loomer is a Jew and what
she actually deserves is her own fucking mother she’s sitting at a Mexican
restaurant and her own mother is sitting across from her and as our fucking new
Stasi comes in to fucking take her in interrogator and gulag her instead of a
date walk away from her she deserves her mother to look her in the fucking eyes
and she says sorry baby it’s for the better good as they take her away – yo
you guys have been working shopping list no no I just that shit up our hate is
pure loora looral uber is like it’s like I have to say you know she’s a alright
horror person but he’s just relatively attractive you know like she’s have sex
with Abel I think you know from my subjective you know you can disaggregate
the way she looks from the rottenness ins exactly yes on the outside she looks
very you know attractive so she really needs to be like a toxic fucking quasi
fascist personality for some like lawyer dude to be instead of like alright cool
you’re like Trump I don’t care let’s eat some Mexican food and like just fuck the
guy just was like whoa you’re fucking crazy and walk the hell out you know
because guys as you know will do a lot in order to have sex with a relatively
attractive woman well I will tell you one very quick story of how my socialist
feminist politics totally totally screwed over my date with a superhot
firefighter when historical materialism goes wrong so I met this firefighter
because my bike got locked up and I lost my keys and the firefighter saved me
totally by accident rapping could someone help me out FDNY man the best
part was that they cut the lock and filled up my tires with air and then
this super hot sweaty firefighter says to me sit on it the bike to see if the
tires are cool enough so then I work up the courage to say all right which one
of you is single and there were like a girl they were like this guy it’s his
turn so I meet him later at the like after
hours firefighters hang out downtown actually he was much less cute out of
his uniform but his buddy from the station shows up like halfway into a
drink and sits down it was like oh I’m just gonna have a quick one and then
like get on the train back to Long Island and he proceeds to start rambling
about how horrible Obamacare is and how no one should have health care who
didn’t have to go to fight in the Iraq war like he did in order to get health
care and I was losing sex like though I looked at the hot firefighter and I
looked at the like ranting foaming conservative who just hates the idea of
anyone having access to health care and I was like okay and I just proceeded to
scream yell at his friend yeah cuz the spread was wrong his friend was totally
wrong oh yeah he was a loser but he like was cute he was very cute he would have
been interesting maybe but he dropped me off at my apartment it was like I think
this is a little too much fire for me whoa damn so we like you actually got a
ride to your place you’re gonna invite him up for like a cup of coffee is like
this is too no I knew into a burning building and saved the children inside
but he cannot handle a little socialist feminist perspective that is sad that’s
how dangerous you know these views are which means how powerful they are burn
baby burn oh yeah fancy word too fiery

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